There are some social issues that are open to debate. Gay Marriage. Death Penalty. War. Abortion. There are religious and moral issues which causes debate and question on these type of issues.
And some that (putting the economic issues aside) are pretty much agreed upon across the board. Drunk Driving is wrong. Homelessness is bad. Health Care should be more readily available.
Before yesterday I would have included the sexually discussions regarding children in the latter group. I honestly thought that was an issue that no one would defend. But apparently, not everyone agrees that it is such a bad thing.
See, yesterday afternoon I had a bit of a Twitter debate with 5 of my fellow Twits. The whole thing actually left me scratching my head and questioning my sanity. I know that many of my online friends have different political views than I do and I have NO PROBLEM with that. I don't mind having intelligent discussion on any issue. But to be honest, I am sort of amazed by the strong opinion people held on something I thought was so black and white. The things people were saying to me were so out of line with my definition of right and wrong, that I was really taken aback.
Please note that I am not attributing words to any person or even mentioning who was involved in the conversation, because it is not my place to put words in anyone's mouth. I am just re-capping MY thoughts and how I FELT about the conversation - mostly because I found the whole experience was so bizarre. I respect each of your positions, but I just cannot say that I understand them. I honestly couldn't (and still can't) believe that smart, thoughtful, insightful adults had opinions which were so foreign from mine.
The conversation was on the topic of Dave Letterman's joke gone awry. My thought on that topic is that it is wrong to sexualize a 14 year old child - even if that wasn't your intent. Period. There is no excuse. No debate. It is just as bad as drunk driving to say something sexual about child.
Now I realize that the intent of joke was to make fun of the 17 year old teen mother. That would have a been distasteful, but funny in my opinion. But when Dave realized that the butt of the joke was the 14 year old and not the 17 year old, he should have apologized immediately and put the whole thing to sleep. That was the entire point that I was attempting to make. Dave did something wrong and Dave should apologize. (Of course, unless you live under a rock, you do know that Dave did apologize last night.)
However, out of the 5 twitters involved in the conversation, not one - including 2 mothers of tween girls - would agree (or concede) that it was wrong to make a sexual joke about a child. Seriously? What sort of society do we live in where this is ok? Where this type of behavior is defended?
People told me that making sexual comments about a 14 year old was ok because:
- her sister was unwed teen mother.
- the Palin family believed in abstinence.
- Gov. Palin's reaction justified the original remark.
Hmmm.....Somehow I don't think any of those justifies the joke. Again, once Dave knew he made the joke a kid, he had to apologize.
When I asked if the comment would be justifiable if make about one of the Obama girls, I was told by 2 separate people that I was comparing apples to oranges. How is that? I was comparing sexualizing one child to sexualizing another child. Seems pretty much like apples and apples to me.When I said that Don Imus had suffered repercussions for his Nappy-headed Ho comment and made a comparison to Dave, I was told that "even [I] couldn't possibly be going there." Huh? Why? Because insulting a team of adults is somehow so much worse than insulting a child? I honestly don't get it.
Lastly, I was told that there was nothing wrong with what Dave said and it was the "dirty minds of others" that should be blamed. I seriously thought I was in the Twilight Zone!
The only justification I can come up with is that because Sarah Palin is a hated, people believe it is acceptable to say whatever they want about her children. And I find that horrible.
I don't watch those late night talk shows. If I am awake and watching tv at that time at night, I opt for sitcom reruns. I don't know if it is common to make fun of kids, but I thought it was generally frowned upon. I remember before the Olsen twins turned 18, they were off limits as far as sexual innuendo was concerned.
I wasn't defending Palin's reaction, though I did ask what people would do if the comments were made about their children. I don't know what I would do, but I doubt if I would just let it go. I didn't talk about the calls for boycotts or about the advertisers who pulled out of Dave's show, because quite frankly I think that is an over reaction. I don't think Dave or the writers should be punished. They should just own their mistake.
I am not saying I am right. I was clearly in the minority in the discussion last night. Maybe my views are screwed up. But I am proud that I am the type of person who would be outraged by what happened. I stand by my belief that making sexual comments about child - even inadvertently - should not be tolerated. And I will continue to scratch my head and furrow my brow at anyone who can defend such behavior.
So, more importantly than your opinion on Dave Letterman, tell me if you have been totally blown away by other people's opinions. Have you ever thought something was so black and white only to have other people paint you all sort of shades of grey?
17 comments:
You're right. I'm pissed.
Pissed that I didn't write this post myself. ha. ha.
I totally agree. It's NOT cool to be sexually explicit about kids. Makes no difference if they are 18 or 14. I'd knock out someone that said that about my kids. If I had kids.
I too said the same thing. Would it have been ok if they said that about Obama's kids. NO!
Dave was wrong and I'm glad that he apologized. I think Palin gets attacked just because she's a Republician. Media outlet loves to please their liberals. I mean...I don't like Pelosi but I would never want harm to her kids.
Yep. You covered it. Well said.
While I think the whole thing surrounding the Dave letterman joke was blown a bit out of proportion, I thought it was obvious he was talking about the older kid, I do agree with you. Talking about a child in that way is disgusting and should not be tolerated. Famous or not it is inappropriate.
I think some people are okay with that kind of joke because children these days are growing up much faster and people who are young teens are doing stuff that I NEVER even thought about doing then. Which is why it is even more important to protect them and stop it from being okay. Next people are going to start saying it’s okay if a teen wants to be with someone significantly older. Hello Miley Cyrus???
I totally agree with you. Unacceptable. I'm glad he apologized, but it shouldn't have been said in the first place and furthermore, it wasn't even funny. I was thinking "What does ARod have to do with it?" Dumb.
I am a pretty black and white person myself who resides and works in a college town. I hear things come out of people's mouths that shocks the crap out of me. I like to think that these 'kids' are just wrong. But maybe I am just getting old and too conservative?
I was actually watching this unfold on Twitter and considered joining in, but was so taken aback by some of the participants (I'm still wondering if I was just misreading) that I just watched in awe.
The justifications made me want to hurl - of course that could be because I've got a 14 year old step daughter. This "He/she deserves it mentality is about to send me over the edge. I don't particularly like Palin, but to say her family "deserves" to be made fun of in a sexual manner? Ummm ... no!
And we are talking about kids here - kids without a choice as to who their parents are - kids who just have to stand by and put up with it - because they "deserve" it? Nope! Not OK!
Yes it is wrong regardless of what anyone else says. Is child pornography illegal; is it statutory rape if you engage with someone under the age of 18?
We have these laws in place for a reason. It was distasteful and inappropriate. Regardless of the fact that I am a mother of two I would still feel as strong if I wasn’t a mother.
There are a lot of sicko’s out there and to use a child as a character in your sexual joke is uncalled for.
I don’t watch that much TV anymore so regardless if he apologized or not, he still has to live with his comment.
I could care less if he apologized or not he still said it and it was sick!
Nobody said that sexualized jokes about children was acceptable. The discussion was about many aspects of this story and not focused solely on whether or not sex jokes about children are okay.
I don't know much about the Dave Letterman stuff, it sounds like it went too far. I'm always blown away by people's opinions, or more like i think people are blown away by mine. And can i just tell you that Don Imus thing was blown way out of proportion, I was at Rutgers when that debacle happened and those girls took some of that stuff too far. They didn't even know about it and then one wanted to go and say she was emotionally scarred. That's some shit. Anyways, stay strong to your beliefs!
Apples to apples, that's how I roll.
I'm glad to hear he has apologized; I hope he actually meant it. He's a dad -- he should know better! And if he truly meant to joke about Bristol, the teen mother... well, that still isn't funny. She's lucky to have the support of her family because she's got a hard row to hoe.
When a person who has come across as "holier than thou" gets "taken down a few pegs," the schadenfreude can be overwhelming. Human nature is clearly visible here. In this case, the point was probably to continue to heap shame/blame on Sarah Palin and her politics and beliefs. I personally think that liberals especially enjoy seeing conservatives fall. (I know, it goes both ways... but I think it's a little stronger on one side vs. the other... and maybe that is because some conservatives come across as being "holier than thou.")
I think you are right. It's wrong, no matter the political affiliation of said child's parents. And frankly, I think it's totally liberal bias. And you know, Karen, how totally liberal I am. So I say that with sadness at the way people make judgments based on politics when they should be made on basic decency. I think Don Imus was wrong, I think Dave Letterman was wrong. Period.
AND. Teen moms who try to make the best of it should be supported. My best friend was a teen mom. 19 when she had my godson. She worked two or three jobs and raised her kids and now she's a teacher and her two kids are super smart and super well adjusted. No one should be judging her, unless it's to hold her up as an example.
I tend to be the "shades of grey" person when it comes to discussions, although I wouldn't defend a public joke about a child's sexuality. I make a lot of inappropriate jokes when it's just myself and a close friend who understands exactly where I'm coming from and when I'm being an idiot on purpose to get a laugh. But publicly - that's another story. There are too many chances for misunderstandings. It's better to be civilized and respectful.
First off I'm glad he made an apology as it's wrong to drag the children into things, but she's a public figure now and this craps gonna happen. Secondly it was a bad joke, it wasn't rape, pedophilia or some great perversion. It was just a stupid joke. If we are going to freak out about Sarah Palin's child being joked about do you know how many things we should totally be outraged about that we let slide? I mean if you go back to the Clinton's their poor kid was picked on for her looks much more often. The truth of the matter is that jokes are never meant to be considered as if they were real actions. What's the funny in that? If someone came up planning on raping that 14 year old I would call the cops, but to make an over the line joke simply requires me to dismiss them as stupid. Heck I even heard the joke likened to a hate crime. When you go over the top to be offended and start classifying things on the scale of hate crime it really broadens the definition to have no real meaning anymore. Trust for me to be different.
I have to agree with Ron.
And in reference to the black and white thing..being a liberal surrounded by a sea of conservatives in my life..I have that WTF issue with them all the time.
Jay, Dave, Conan, John and all the other late night comedians have told thousands of poor tast jokes on TV about every subject in the book that could possibly offend people. Yes, that's what they do!. It's how the people percieve the joke and weather or not they want to make a stink about it publicly. I see it all as Black and White, your offended by a joke, or not. We've all "heard" very tasteless jokes, it's our choice to not listen or not watch.
I totally agree with everything you just said. People and basic human morals don't seem to go together once politics steps in the room.
FYI - Karen. Bristol Palin, Letterman's intended target, is 19.
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